Psychology & Spain

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psychologee
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Psychology & Spain

Post by psychologee » Sat Feb 16, 2008 12:09 pm

Hi,
I have been mulling something over for a while now and have decided to put my quandry out there and see what you all think!
I am a mature part time undergraduate (26), about to gradaute (predicted first) and have 3 years clinical expereince in NHS, the last 2 of which has been as a band 4 support worker with a lot of supervision from clin psych, formulation, CBT-type work, reflective practice etc. All in all, I am doing all I can for the holy grail!
I have a Spanish partner and we are thinking of moving back to Spain where we used to live. I speak fluent Spanish and I know that the post grad system there is called PIR, a multiple chioce exam that if you get through you get three years training in public sector. I know that competition is tough, too.
I am mulling over whether to give my training a go over here and then think about moving over with a UK docotorate (more prestigious than PIR I think). Is there anyone out there that knows a lot about work in Psychology in Spain? Anyone in the same predicement? Any Spanish people trying to make it here in UK in Clin Psych who can help me compare and contrast systems?
Any thoughts welcome, guys. Thanks for your time.

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miriam
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Post by miriam » Sat Feb 16, 2008 2:01 pm

I don't know anything about Spain, but I don't think the NHS would like to fund £100,000 worth of training for someone to work abroad. That leaves you with a dilemma about how honest to be about your long term aims when applying for training in the UK, and personally I'd find it a bit unethical to not disclose that if it was your intention...
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psychologee
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Post by psychologee » Sat Feb 16, 2008 6:50 pm

OK, I guess that told me. I understand what you are saying. Thanks for your thoughts.

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Post by nettyb » Sat Feb 16, 2008 7:03 pm

However ... given the current nature of CP in the UK there is a growing recognition from courses that people may well work abroad on completion of training. Our clinical director (during a teaching session about job applications) said that they were aware that people may want to work abroad following training, he mentioned Europe, Australia and New Zealand and told us how to go about searching for jobs abroad. On my course there are several trainees from Europe and beyond who came here to get experience, train, and who plan to return to their home nation when they qualify, but then there are others who have fallen in love with CP in the UK and plan to stay. At the end of the day it all comes down to how comfortable you feel with training and then returning to Spain.

psychologee
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Post by psychologee » Sat Feb 16, 2008 7:11 pm

Mm, yeah. It is defintely food for thought. I know that the BPS have taken part in a pilot project to standardise qualifactions etc acorss europe, I think it is called EuroPsych or something similar, with the goal if making it easier to recognise and compare promgrammes and opportunities acorss Europe for Clin Psychs. Indeed, docotors seem to be able to do this with much greater ease and I do think there is scope for this within CP.

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Post by miriam » Sun Feb 17, 2008 12:11 am

I wasn't trying to make you feel bad, but to give you awareness that "commitment to work in the NHS" is a significant selection factor. Also, given the UK clinical training program is so competitive, it doesn't seem to make much sense to do your training here if the training in the country in which you wish to work is more accessible...
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Antigone
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Re: Psychology & Spain

Post by Antigone » Mon Mar 12, 2018 5:00 pm

The NHS profits immensely from EU professionals that have been trained overseas with overseas taxpayer's money. I find it interesting how the discussion of funds and ethics only ever tends to consider loss for the NHS. A psychologist with intercultural experience is a good psychologist.

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Re: Psychology & Spain

Post by miriam » Mon Mar 12, 2018 5:06 pm

Interesting 10 year bump there!

I'd agree that the NHS gains benefits from internationally trained staff but I'm not sure that "A psychologist with intercultural experience is a good psychologist". I think it is a positive additional quality, but not required to be a good psychologist or sufficient to make someone a good psychologist.
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Re: Psychology & Spain

Post by Antigone » Mon Mar 12, 2018 5:40 pm

In the UK at least 20% of the population has a migration background of some sort. I don't see how you can say intercultural competencies are not a requirement for a clinical psychologist.

That said - I was kind of pointing at the fact that there is often a bias in the way people think and talk about funding and resources for ClinPsych. There's often a nationalist/protectionist flavor to the discussion. I wonder where that comes from?

Rest assured, I did not mean to say that anyone that had spent a year in Erasmus during their studies should be awarded a doctorate in clinical psychology. I guess I didn't express myself very well.

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Re: Psychology & Spain

Post by miriam » Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:10 am

My parents are immigrants, and I see the value of that (I think it shows in my work ethic and approach to education). I'm also strongly anti-Brexit, and see the positives in our multicultural workforce, and the way our health and social care sector is dependent on immigrants in the workforce.

I still think the process of giving equivalence to international psychologists who are not actually equivalent in terms of having a doctoral qualification with the full breadth of experience through the lifespan is problematic. So, please don't read a very specific quibble with the way psychology is regulated in the UK as xenophobia or protectionism.
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Spatch
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Re: Psychology & Spain

Post by Spatch » Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:39 am

That said - I was kind of pointing at the fact that there is often a bias in the way people think and talk about funding and resources for ClinPsych. There's often a nationalist/protectionist flavor to the discussion. I wonder where that comes from?
I can completely see why people would think that from the frosty reception this sort of query brings and the hoops that foreign trained psychologists often feel they have to jump through.

As a clinical psychology history geek, I think the answer is more complicated that simple protectionism or xenophobia. If we look at the development of clinical psychology in English speaking countries (mainly US and UK, but also Canada NZ and Aus), vs continental europe, you start to notice divergences and different epistemological perspectives. These begin to emerge in the 1940s with the establishment of the Boulder and Vail model (in the 1970s) of training (that we later dervied the DClinPsy from in the UK), and how professional psychology developed in Europe. Expectations, professionalisation, duties and roles varied, as well as the way that British Clinical Psychology integrated alongside the NHS, so there became quite profound differences between the various international pathways. I recommend the work of Don Routh or John Hall if you want to read more details about this.

Then add to that the variance in how psychologists are trained within Europe (see this article for the complexity: https://thepsychologist.bps.org.uk/volu ... ing-europe) and you can see there are a huge number of factors to consider when thinking about integrating non-UK trained clinical psychologists into the UK workforce. In an odd way, I would prefer it if it was only due to xenophobia/protectionism, because the more existential questions around "what should be a clinical psychologist and how should they be trained" are more disturbing, anxiety provoking and harder to get my head around.
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Re:

Post by Antigone » Tue Mar 13, 2018 2:14 pm

miriam wrote:I don't know anything about Spain, but I don't think the NHS would like to fund £100,000 worth of training for someone to work abroad. That leaves you with a dilemma about how honest to be about your long term aims when applying for training in the UK, and personally I'd find it a bit unethical to not disclose that if it was your intention...
My responses were aimed at this comment and not at inter/national guidelines that regulate equivalence. The UK has been better than many other countries at setting procedure that regulate equivalence of foreign training. That is why so many non-british NHS professionals can be employed here.

Again: In my experience I have found that there is a tendency to moralise NHS trained professionals into staying in the UK. It is an interesting dynamic, especially in times when pressure and workload on clinicians is increasing, and people are looking around for a better/sustainable life.

I also tried to point out the fact that when people complain about NHS resources hemorrhaging every-time a British trained clinical psychologist/doctor/nurse leaves the UK, they are conveniently forgetting that the NHS profits from non-British trained clinicians.
Last edited by Antigone on Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:07 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Antigone
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Re: Psychology & Spain

Post by Antigone » Tue Mar 13, 2018 2:26 pm

Spatch wrote:
I think the answer is more complicated
It always is ;) But thanks for the historical perspective on training divergences.

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Re: Re:

Post by miriam » Wed Mar 14, 2018 12:45 am

Antigone wrote:
miriam wrote:I don't know anything about Spain, but I don't think the NHS would like to fund £100,000 worth of training for someone to work abroad. That leaves you with a dilemma about how honest to be about your long term aims when applying for training in the UK, and personally I'd find it a bit unethical to not disclose that if it was your intention...
My responses were aimed at this comment and not at inter/national guidelines that regulate equivalence. The UK has been better than many other countries at setting procedure that regulate equivalence of foreign training. That is why so many non-british NHS professionals can be employed here.
Right. But I was replying on a broader theme about other more recent posts on the forum, where I've expressed that view. I've been quite outspoken about many limitations of the HCPC regulation - including the fact that other psychological professions outside of the specific regulated terms are not covered, that it doesn't cover expert witness work, and that the bar for international equivalence is too low. I just wanted to be clear that the latter point was not motivated by protectionism or xenophobia, but by concerns we are not protecting the public sufficiently after having seen some absolutely dire examples of "psychologists" who are struck off or unqualified, or outside of their competence still practicing.

Here I was just saying that it is a criterion for selection to show a commitment to the NHS, so disclosing a plan to emigrate upon qualification might be counterproductive. Personally I want to have as many CPs trained in the UK as possible, and to have good services here. I want good services everywhere, but the UK is where I live and work, and the focus of this forum, so that is where I want to start. The funding for clinical training is under a lot of pressure and we keep hearing it is being reviewed, and personally I'd much rather have tie-ins to the NHS than a cut in salary or trainee numbers.
Antigone wrote:Again: In my experience I have found that there is a tendency to moralise NHS trained professionals into staying in the UK. It is an interesting dynamic, especially in times when pressure and workload on clinicians is increasing, and people are looking around for a better/sustainable life.

I also tried to point out the fact that when people complain about NHS resources hemorrhaging every-time a British trained clinical psychologist/doctor/nurse leaves the UK, they are conveniently forgetting that the NHS profits from non-British trained clinicians.
I would much rather we made clinicians want to stay in the NHS and in the UK because they feel they are making a difference, and are part of something amazing. Unfortunately the NHS has been systematically eroded over the last decade, and the politics of austerity has stripped much of the remainder of that goodwill away. I left the NHS in 2011, having expected to have a lifelong career there like my mother. But I'm still working on applying clinical psychology knowledge in a way that benefits those with the greatest need, so I can find my satisfaction in another way.
Miriam

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