Issues with Diversity in Clin Psy Trainees Recruitment

Discuss applications to the clearing house (and to courses that are not in the clearing house system), screening assessments, interviews, reserve lists, places, etc. here
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Re: Issues with Diversity in Clin Psy Trainees Recruitment

Post by miriam » Wed May 15, 2019 5:17 pm

lakeland wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 3:02 pm
mr0860 wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 2:46 pm
The group which is most significantly underrepresented, relative to their proportion in the UK population as a whole, is men. In the engineering profession, which has a similar gender imbalance in the opposite direction, they are trying to tackle this by offering female-only scholarships (equivalent to ~£10k, plus mentoring support) for Master's courses. Would a similar system of male-only scholarships for psychology be a useful and/or effective tool to address the gender imbalance?
No, because men are not disadvantaged as a group. They just choose not to apply for Psychology for various reasons.

Also, as JDan14 said, men are over-represented at senior CP levels (8B and above), so seems to me that if they choose this route, they're doing just fine.
Indeed!
mr0860 wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 9:21 am
I appreciate you've said you'e not going to reply again, and of course that is your right. However, I'll reply to this message as if we were continuing the discussion, because I think it's important not to allow your radical views on gender to go unchallenged. I think it's rather telling that you're not willing to directly defend your position by directly addressing any of my comments.
Well, I'm going to intervene because this is my forum, and it doesn't exist so that people can perpetuate prejudice and ignorance. These aren't "radical views" these are well-established facts. None of us have any time for this poor disadvantaged white men nonsense. Outside of gamergate and MRA forums your views are unacceptable and I have no intention of giving you a platform for them. Finding exceptions to systemic advantage is not adversity, and if you can't recognise that you need to go and educate yourself, because if you post this drivel here again and sideline what was a thoughtful debate I'm going to take action as a moderator to prevent it.
mr0860 wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 9:21 am
Let's say that you're right in your assumption that I'm a white man (and let's throw in the idea that I'm cisgendered and heterosexual too), but we'll add in the caveats that I'm from a working-class family and experienced significant familial problems throughout my childhood. Now I'll make the assumption that you are an upper-middle-class, privately-educated white woman who had a stable upbringing, like many in the profession. If these two characterisations are accurate, then which of us faced the greater challenge in becoming a qualified Psychologist (or reaching any senior position)? Why should we only look through the lens of gender?
You would. And you'd get promoted faster and earn more in your career. Apart from the socioeconomic elements, which are equally if not more prevalent in women, you faced no challenge except for defying your own internalised gender expectations that feelings are feminine. Every aspect of selection and career progression was more favourable for you as a man, despite you being statistically in a minority.

You will note you have now had two formal warnings about sexism and posting antagonistically, and treating the protected characteristics of other members with disrespect. Do so again and I will ban you.
Miriam

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Re: Issues with Diversity in Clin Psy Trainees Recruitment

Post by mr0860 » Wed May 15, 2019 6:03 pm

miriam wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 5:17 pm
Well, I'm going to intervene because this is my forum, and it doesn't exist so that people can perpetuate prejudice and ignorance.... you need to go and educate yourself, because if you post this drivel here again and sideline what was a thoughtful debate I'm going to take action as a moderator to prevent it.
I'm sorry but this is just nonsense, as are your threats via PM to suspend my account. I'm conducting this discussion entirely in good faith, so to accuse me of trolling is simply unfair. You're the admin of this forum so if you want to go ahead and ban me, then fine - do it. Just have the decency to admit that you're not doing it because I've acted impolitely or because I've broken any site rules, you're doing it because you're intolerant of views which you disagree with.
miriam wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 5:17 pm
These aren't "radical views" these are well-established facts. None of us have any time for this poor disadvantaged white men nonsense.
How do you support the contention that these are "well-established facts"? I'm being completely serious here, how do you (beyond all doubt, to such an extent that the topic should not even be up for debate) evidence the claim that women are systemically oppressed but men are not? Why is the idea that men are also disadvantaged by patriarchal societal norms so objectionable, given the demonstrable gender differences in completed suicides, homelessness, drug/alcohol abuse, overall life expectancy, military deaths, industrial deaths, and so on?

I'm sure you're simply going to suspend my account instead of actually addressing my concerns, but I must say I find your attitude here to be completely appalling. One would hope that you were driven to the vocation of Clinical Psychology by a sense of genuine empathy, and yet you completely dismiss and disaparage concerns about men's mental health. It's no wonder that men are so reluctant to access mental health services if this is the sort of attitude they encounter from practitioners.

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Re: Issues with Diversity in Clin Psy Trainees Recruitment

Post by mr0860 » Wed May 15, 2019 6:08 pm

miriam wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 5:17 pm
You would. And you'd get promoted faster and earn more in your career. Apart from the socioeconomic elements, which are equally if not more prevalent in women, you faced no challenge except for defying your own internalised gender expectations that feelings are feminine. Every aspect of selection and career progression was more favourable for you as a man, despite you being statistically in a minority.
Apologies, missed this part of your original post. This idea that the only challenge that my hypothetical male candidate would face is "internalised gender expectations that feelings are feminine" is again simply ludricous. What about all of the numerous challenges that are associated with coming from a more disadvantaged socio-economic background, such as access to poorer-quality education, the necessity of working part-time whilst in education, and so forth? What about all of the numerous challenges that are associated with an unstable familial upbringing? I'm not sure why you'd limit the view of the individual to gender alone.

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Re: Issues with Diversity in Clin Psy Trainees Recruitment

Post by hawke » Wed May 15, 2019 6:42 pm

miriam wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 5:17 pm
Well, I'm going to intervene because this is my forum, and it doesn't exist so that people can perpetuate prejudice and ignorance. These aren't "radical views" these are well-established facts. None of us have any time for this poor disadvantaged white men nonsense. Outside of gamergate and MRA forums your views are unacceptable and I have no intention of giving you a platform for them.
I tend to agree with the points being made here about the difference between individual adversity and systemic adversity. However, I fear the points being raised by mr0860 are not just found in gamergate and MRA forums. I come across these views daily - in my family, my friends, my clients, my colleagues, in the media and in political discourse. In my experience, my feminist lens is generally the one viewed as extreme - even amongst my clinical psychology cohort at times!

The conversation reminds me of interpersonal effectiveness in DBT. Is it more important to be right or to be effective in changing someone's mind / changing systemic problems? If being effective is more important, I would be really interested to see any evidence people have on the effects of no-platforming. My quick google scholar search has been ineffective in finding anything beyond opinion pieces. Having said all this, I fully respect the right of the admins on this site to set and enforce rules for the forum to protect its members as they see fit - I'm just wondering what the wider consequences of doing so might be.
Last edited by hawke on Wed May 15, 2019 7:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Issues with Diversity in Clin Psy Trainees Recruitment

Post by xxpoogletxx » Wed May 15, 2019 6:47 pm

Mr0860 no-one is saying that individuals coming from a lower socio-economic background aren’t disadvantaged, or that men can’t experience disadvantages. All people are saying is that men are not systemically disadvantaged in our society BECAUSE of their gender, it doesn’t mean that they can’t be discriminated against in other ways (e.g. race, disability, sexuality).
Things need to be looked at through a nuanced and intersectional lens, the more a person’s identity is at these intersections, the more systemically oppressed they will be, and the harder they have to work against this to just reach a ‘level ground’ with individuals who hold a lot of privilege in our society.

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Re: Issues with Diversity in Clin Psy Trainees Recruitment

Post by miriam » Wed May 15, 2019 7:15 pm

That user is now banned. It might be informative to know that he also posted provocatively/disrespectfully on other forums.

I'm fully up for different views and happily engage in conversation with those that listen to and respect the views of others. But that wasn't what was happening here. To deny sexism exists and to be dismissive about the lived experience of people in minority groups, and to respond so antagonistically to polite and eloquent challenge from a number of other people is to be a person I don't wish to give a platform to, or to support in their path towards my profession.
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Re: Issues with Diversity in Clin Psy Trainees Recruitment

Post by lakeland » Wed May 15, 2019 7:21 pm

Thank you Miriam. I hope people who have read the thread have at least taken something from the conversation (mainly don't mess with Miriam, Volta and AnsweringBell).

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Re: Issues with Diversity in Clin Psy Trainees Recruitment

Post by miriam » Wed May 15, 2019 7:27 pm

hawke wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 6:42 pm
I fear the points being raised by mr0860 are not just found in gamergate and MRA forums. I come across these views daily - in my family, my friends, my clients, my colleagues, in the media and in political discourse. In my experience, my feminist lens is generally the one viewed as extreme - even amongst my clinical psychology cohort at times!
I'm sad that is your experience. I too used to say "I believe in equal rights, but I'm not a feminist" and have a lot of ignorance about the pervasive impacts of sexism in society. But I gradually learnt I was turning away from a fictitious character created by those who fear feminism, and that every single one of us needs to speak up for what is right. I feel quite downhearted by the fact sexist idiots are being emboldened by Trump and his ilk. The fact some rich white men have so much covert influence that they can raise a tide of racism/xenophobia to cover for their fear that their tax evasion opportunities will be curtailed is a hideous indictment of what happens when things swing right for too long, but it won't stop the march of progress in the long term. Every bit of evidence I've seen indicates that progressive views are winning out over time, despite the noise created by those who resist progress because of fear that they will lose out personally. The vast majority of people in this country believe in equal rights for women, just as a majority believe in gay marriage, or publicly owned utilities, or a properly funded NHS. So don't be persuaded that you are in the minority. You are just more insightful and willing to speak up about issues that most people agree with in their most basic form.
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Re: Issues with Diversity in Clin Psy Trainees Recruitment

Post by miriam » Wed May 15, 2019 7:41 pm

mr0860 wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 6:03 pm
I'm sorry but this is just nonsense, as are your threats via PM to suspend my account. I'm conducting this discussion entirely in good faith, so to accuse me of trolling is simply unfair. You're the admin of this forum so if you want to go ahead and ban me, then fine - do it. Just have the decency to admit that you're not doing it because I've acted impolitely or because I've broken any site rules, you're doing it because you're intolerant of views which you disagree with.
I'm enforcing the rules of the forum, which state we do not tolerate prejudice or disrespectful/antagonistic posting. I've engaged with many people whose views are entirely at odds with my own in many contexts, but I don't waste energy with people who don't accept evidence or treat other participants in the conversation with respect.
mr0860 wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 6:03 pm
How do you support the contention that these are "well-established facts"? I'm being completely serious here, how do you (beyond all doubt, to such an extent that the topic should not even be up for debate) evidence the claim that women are systemically oppressed but men are not? Why is the idea that men are also disadvantaged by patriarchal societal norms so objectionable, given the demonstrable gender differences in completed suicides, homelessness, drug/alcohol abuse, overall life expectancy, military deaths, industrial deaths, and so on?
Men are also harmed by sexism. The devaluing of feminine qualities (like showing feelings, being vulnerable, caring for children, etc) impacts on both genders restricting the socially acceptable options. Feminists want to change this. But systemic oppression only affects the underdog - people of colour, women, people of non-hetero or non-cis identities, people with disabilities etc - despite the fact that some bad things also happen to some members of the favoured groups. The evidence for systemic oppression is so far proven that to go back to debating it is like trying to engage with a flat-earther.
mr0860 wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 6:03 pm
I'm sure you're simply going to suspend my account instead of actually addressing my concerns, but I must say I find your attitude here to be completely appalling. One would hope that you were driven to the vocation of Clinical Psychology by a sense of genuine empathy, and yet you completely dismiss and disaparage concerns about men's mental health. It's no wonder that men are so reluctant to access mental health services if this is the sort of attitude they encounter from practitioners.
You know nothing about how I treat men who approach me in my professional or personal life. You have only experienced how I non-platform sexists on my internet site.

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Re: Issues with Diversity in Clin Psy Trainees Recruitment

Post by lingua_franca » Wed May 15, 2019 7:57 pm

I saw this thread the other night, thought, "Am I going to respond to MRA stuff?" and then decided, "No, it would waste precious minutes of my time on planet Earth." Thanks Miriam.

People here might be interested in this blog post by Jessica Eaton, the feminist founder of the UK's first male mental health centre. It seems on point, following the accusation that acknowledging male privilege means not caring about men's mental health or other adversity experienced by men: https://victimfocus.wordpress.com/2018/ ... about-men/
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Re: Issues with Diversity in Clin Psy Trainees Recruitment

Post by Spatch » Wed May 15, 2019 9:21 pm

I am a bit disappointed in how this thread developed. I think we could have easily engaged with the points raised by MrO860 on his terms, without needing to no platform based on evidence and systematic dismantling (and to be fair Miriam does go into this). Yet, I can't help think there was an opportunity here that was missed.

My fear that this is just going to add to the sense of grievance that people who believe that hold. That views are not tolerated if they go against "the orthodoxy" and that diversity is restricted to ethnicity or gender instead of views, ideology or political stance. It's also not a fait accompli that definitions such as concepts such as systemic racism or intersectionality are widely held or accepted. I note that people talked about "I can't be arsed" or "It's not my job to educate", which I can sympathise with as it is techincally true, but in terms of debate or persuasiuon it can come across as a cop out or we are retreating to positions of victimhood. Instead this thread has changed no one's mind or synthesised any ideas that are new. People's beliefs are more entrenched and we retreat to positions that reinforce what we already hold and this becomes another example of "feminists/BMEs can't handle the truth so play the insult card to shut down conversations. QED."

I have also been struck by the idea raised on both sides about "how can you be a clinical psychologist if you believe/think/express..." which I find interesting. If you look at the history of the profession you can be a right wing or left wing clinical psychologist. People like Jordan Peterson are clinical psychologists, who I philopsophically oppose, but acknowlege comprises as one of our ranks on his own merits and beliefs hold an internal consistency which warrant engaging. No platforming adds to their power and persuasiveness and diminishes their opponents.

However, it has got me thinking about why issues around diversity and training are so difficult to address and engage with. I do think there is a lot about exercising power and our position and relationship to it. Who is oppressed and who is advantaged, and how the process of selction somehow is held accountable for things that lie way beyond its scope.In doing this work for 15 years, I have not yet met a person who believes selection is fair. Every stakeholder feels disenfranchised or disadvantaged in some way, be it men or women, minorities or majorities, old or young or whatever demographic way you slice it. Yet we are often left feeling there is only one way to see this. Personally, I feel this warrants more discussion rather than less even if it means engaging with those we find objectionable and obnoxious.
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Re: Issues with Diversity in Clin Psy Trainees Recruitment

Post by lingua_franca » Wed May 15, 2019 10:46 pm

I suspect that most if not all of the women here have spent an awful lot of time trying to talk reasonably with men who hold views like mrO860's, with nothing good to show for it. I definitely have. Now I choose to spend my time on more fruitful and less frustrating things. I don't think that refusal to take part in such an exercise for the 4067 thousandth time should be seen as adding to these men's sense of grievance, as that comes painfully close to shifting responsibility for changing their attitudes onto women.
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Re: Issues with Diversity in Clin Psy Trainees Recruitment

Post by AnsweringBell » Wed May 15, 2019 10:50 pm

Spatch wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 9:21 pm
I am a bit disappointed in how this thread developed. I think we could have easily engaged with the points raised by MrO860 on his terms, without needing to no platform based on evidence and systematic dismantling (and to be fair Miriam does go into this). Yet, I can't help think there was an opportunity here that was missed.
It's really tiring work, Spatch. And it feels endless. It's work that does need doing, but I very much disagree that it's up to the people in groups who've experienced the discrimination to do that. Especially with issues as heated as gender, where the person is unlikely to take my perspective as seriously as they would a man's anyway. That's where the good allies should be coming in first. (On race, feminism, sexuality, trans rights, disabilities - all). All of the educating is more effective from people within, rather than the 'other' in the case of prejudicial views.

I'm thrilled when people are patient, and will educate. But I don't think it's right to expect that from those who experience discrimination on the issue themselves. Honestly, I wouldn't have chimed in at all if an ally was making the points and the person was showing a modicum of progression in their thinking.

(I do have better, nuanced thoughts but I hate doing this on my phone)

Lingua, spot on. With your link and your reply.

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Re: Issues with Diversity in Clin Psy Trainees Recruitment

Post by lingua_franca » Wed May 15, 2019 11:30 pm

AnsweringBell wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 10:50 pm
Especially with issues as heated as gender, where the person is unlikely to take my perspective as seriously as they would a man's anyway.
I was in a two-year relationship with a man who sincerely believed that feminism is a conspiracy to oppress men. (He did not reveal this view to me at the outset - I wouldn't have dated him at all if I'd known one-tenth of his views.) His behaviour became abusive. Like most victims of domestic violence, I believed that I could change his attitude and behaviour by being more understanding, having more patience, and communicating more clearly. It took quite some time for it to dawn on me that nothing I said or did would ever make a difference, because in his mind I was fundamentally untrustworthy simply by virtue of being female.

The next stage: I stopped feeling bad for not having been a good enough girlfriend, and started feeling bad for not being a good enough feminist. I shouldn't have got into that situation. I should have got out sooner. I should have reacted differently when he did XYZ. Then it was shame that I would fall into such a trap when I've studied psychology. I should have known better. (The only thing that liberated me from that one was turning up at a therapy group for women who had experienced domestic violence and finding a GP there as a participant. I decided that if a doctor was allowed to be in this mess then so was I.) Fast forward a few years, and now I try not to bombard myself with 'shoulds' and 'shouldn'ts'. If I don't want to debate with sexist men as though their opinions are as solid as my reality, that is my prerogative. I do see echoes of my former attempts to appease my violent boyfriend in women's fruitless efforts to persuade men that what they're experiencing is real.

This is probably the most personal thing I've ever shared on ClinPsy, and I might regret it, but I am doing so because I know that my experience is unfortunately quite common. Statistically I'm unlikely to be the only poster here who has experienced such things. Abuse, domestic violence, sexual assault - they're everyday things, and their very everydayness factors into women's exhaustion when faced with yet another man insisting that misogyny and structural discrimination against women aren't a thing. For this reason, my immediate thought when reading the sexist posts in this thread was, "How many other women here will be feeling weighed down by this?" and not, "It's a shame we didn't engage him in reasoned debate."
"Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
"Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
Piglet was comforted by this.
- A.A. Milne.

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Re: Issues with Diversity in Clin Psy Trainees Recruitment

Post by miriam » Wed May 15, 2019 11:50 pm

Spatch wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 9:21 pm
I am a bit disappointed in how this thread developed. I think we could have easily engaged with the points raised by MrO860 on his terms, without needing to no platform based on evidence and systematic dismantling (and to be fair Miriam does go into this). Yet, I can't help think there was an opportunity here that was missed.

My fear that this is just going to add to the sense of grievance that people who believe that hold. That views are not tolerated if they go against "the orthodoxy" and that diversity is restricted to ethnicity or gender instead of views, ideology or political stance.

...I note that people talked about "I can't be arsed" or "It's not my job to educate", which I can sympathise with as it is techincally true, but in terms of debate or persuasiuon it can come across as a cop out or we are retreating to positions of victimhood. Instead this thread has changed no one's mind or synthesised any ideas that are new. People's beliefs are more entrenched and we retreat to positions that reinforce what we already hold and this becomes another example of "feminists/BMEs can't handle the truth so play the insult card to shut down conversations. QED."

...No platforming adds to their power and persuasiveness and diminishes their opponents.
I completely disagree on every count Spatch, and I'd really encourage you to think further about what you wrote and the replies to it. The whole narrative of every view - no matter how baseless, inane or intentionally provocative - meriting endless patient reason is really corrosive. Its also really easy to say for the people who are not personally impacted. It plays into the masculine cold logic versus emotional women trope, because there is no way to respond to someone that can go on and on ad infinitum without eventually expressing frustration and ending up being criticised for that. Your post implies that we are at fault for not feeling he was engaging in good faith, or being too worn down to be endlessly patient and polite to a sexist who denies the most basic facts. That implies that we have to give up more of our time, more of our virtual space to him, whilst it is just fine for him to dismiss everything we say or even that women are systemically oppressed at all.

IMHO responding as I did has facilitated not shut down the debate: We were all having a mutually respectful discussion about diversity until the walrus entered the room and took over the thread. I want people to be able to post about their experiences of being discriminated against on the forum and to be believed, and for us to work towards addressing the issues in a culture of mutual respect. We don't achieve that by allowing people to deny discrimination or belittle people who have experienced it. An ally passes the microphone to disadvantaged voices, rather than allowing it to be repeatedly snatched by the straight white man who thinks he is most entitled to speak over everyone else. As I said, I can debate and educate all day if people show some respect and willingness to listen, but he was rude and antagonistic and dismissed people's experiences as well as the basic facts. I don't need that in my online professional life, its enough I meet it every day on social media and most days in the real world, and clearly many other posters felt likewise (along with several people who have contacted me who didn't post).

There is nothing about claiming victimhood in what I or any of the other posters wrote. I suspect you'd view things very differently if we were discussing other forms of discrimination.

And for the record, Jordan Peterson is evil and an embarrassment to the profession. I wouldn't give him a platform either. That doesn't make him more powerful. Locking Yaxley-Lennon out of social media doesn't increase his reach, it is exactly the right response, as will be convicting him for contempt.

Finally, I wanted to say thank you and well said to the other women who have responded, whether with reason or personal disclosure or a mixture of both. It is great that several people have been willing to speak up, and that the thread now carries a lot of content that will provoke thought amongst people who read it that haven't yet read much about feminism. Hopefully it will encourage some to seek out more information, or to overcome their misconceptions enough to identify as a feminist. After all, wanting equal rights for women is a pretty simple thing. The complexity is only in how hidden-in-plain sight the biases and barriers that prevent this are.
Miriam

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